Clinical effectiveness of laser acupuncture?

Newbie23 · Junior Member Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 10 Location: NSW

i am interested in practitioner's opinions on the use and efficacy of laser as a needle alternative. There is alot of scepticism about it I have found, but few TCM/acupuncturists have much clinical experience with it. Is this just bias against non-traditional methods? Anyone who has used it in clinic, I am really keen on your opinion.

Kevin Shaw · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:43 am Post subject:

I have been practicing acupuncture for 13 years and like yourself i was very bias about non-traditional acupuncture. However on several occasions I have used the laser instead of needles due to fear of needles or young children. I was extremely surprised and impressed with the results obtained. This has changed my view on the effectiveness of laser in treatment. I do prefer to needle and can usually talk people around to using the needles therefore will only use the laser as a last resort. This is usually only once or twice a year.

Kevin Shaw

Newbie23 · Junior Member Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 10 Location: NSW

Thanks for you reply kevin. I hope you don't mind me picking your brain a bit on this subject. I was wondering, if you did find it clinically effective, is there a particular reason why you only use it as a last resort? I would never abandon needles altogether, but if laser is an effective alternative I imagine I would use it fairly often. I have read statistics which suggest that about half the population (if not more) will not even consider acupuncture because of the needles. That is alot of people we will never treat. Then there are little kids of course. In your view, what is the main advantage with needles that laser cannot replace? And what do you think is the main disadvantage with laser?
(I am a new practitioner and I have just discovered this forum, so beware all of you experienced clinicians, I have lots of questions!)

Kevin Shaw · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject:

Personally I am the hands on type of person, I am an acupuncturist which means to puncture the skin with needles, not laser. However as most of my clients are muscular skeletal problems, as well as sprains and strains I use the laser in conjunction with the needles to help reduce any further inflammation, increase blood flow, increase the bodies endorphins as well as stimulate the healing process in the muscle tendons and ligaments. Also for strains and sprains I will treat them with acupuncture and laser one day and suggest they come back every second day for laser to help with the healing process then have another acupuncture in 5 - 7 days.
Laser is a quick alternative to acupuncture when they come in on the alternate days. 5 minutes they are done, this helps when you have to see them numerous times in a short period of time.

Kevin

Newbie23 · Junior Member Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 10 Location: NSW

THanks Kevin that is interesting...so you do use it more than once or twice per year? Or do you mean you combine it with needles?
The possiblity that incorporating laser into treatment could be both more effective whilsts also decreasing therapeutic time by even 20% is a key interest for me. Most chiropractors, kinesiologists etc. spend not more than 15 minutes for followups (initials are 45-60 min). My followups currently all take 30-45 min, and many acupuncturists take much longer. Many patients find it inconvenient.
And plus, lasers are great gadgets and I would love to have one. They are expensive though, to get the best technology available (which is the only way to go) for a 100mW therapeutic laser/830nm is $3500-$4500. Shocked

Kevin Shaw · Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject:

I use it with most treatments combined with needles but only about twice per year by itself.
The bigger the laser the less time you need to spend on a patient. Think of this, if you had a 40mw laser and you used it on 10 points in an affected area, you are spending about 1 minute on each point. The patient would be there for 10 minutes.
Now you go and spend $6000 on a 300mw laser which is 7.5 times stronger so therefore you can effectively say using this laser you could spend a maximum of 8 seconds on each point. Any longer would be a waste since only a certain amount can be absorbed by the body. Now your treatment is up to 1 minute 20 seconds.
The biggest complaint I have in my clinic is that i have gone to see a _________ (you fill in the blanks) and they saw me for 5 - 20 minutes and told me to come back in 2 days.
I personally have a 40 mw 820nm laser and a 5 mw 680nm laser, I can not justify the extra cost to upgrade to a bigger unit.
Kevin

Newbie23 · Junior Member Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 10 Location: NSW

I was thinking of a particular 100mW laser because I figured I wouldn't be using more than that. It has five power settings. I know that low level laser stimulates dediffrentiation of cells and tissue healing etc., but at a certain power level, possibly once heat is produced, the cells can well...explode?

benngearthquake · Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject:

Hi, I had used a 200mW laser in practice for two years. I had usually used them as secondary treatment for muscular skeletal problems where the local areas cannot be safely needled, deficiency, or inflamation. When we did treat only with laser, we charged half the price because we could not justify a 5min treatment at the same price as a 45min treatment. I have found that they did not work very well as a replacement for needles in internal disorders. Once the owner of the laser moved away, I did not get another one, because it did not justify the cost. If you work out the fees correctly, you should actually charge more for laser treatments, because the equipment cost much more. But how can you ask people for more money, for something which just beeps for a few minutes with no immediate effects? So I have been sticking with needles, and replaced moxa with a magnetic heat lamp.